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| Andrew Klavan
Culture v. Reality
Can you spot the difference?
5 February 2010
Ever since Pajamas TV began airing Klavan on the Culture, conservatives have been coming up to me and saying, “Ah, culture! What’s that?” Allow me to explain.
Culture in America is an enchanted place where the conservative facts of life are magically transformed into liberal fantasies. In movies, TV shows, novels, even comedy routines, our intellectuals, entertainers, and other fools are busily reshaping reality into works of art through their piercing insights into what will get them good reviews and awards, and through their rich and varied experience of the café in the Chateau Marmont in Los Angeles.
To illustrate, I’ll give you some examples. See if you can spot the difference between reality and American culture. In reality, President John F. Kennedy was a fierce Cold Warrior who twice tripled America’s military presence in the Vietnam War to try to stop the spread of Communism and risked nuclear disaster by standing up to the Soviet Union in Cuba. He was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald, an America-hating leftist who had once defected to the USSR.
Now, the culture: in Oliver Stone’s film JFK—nominated for Best Picture Oscar in 1991—Kennedy is a peaceful lefty contemplating a withdrawal from Vietnam. He’s assassinated by a vast right-wing cabal that includes every single person in America except for Oliver Stone. Reality, culture. Can you spot the difference?
Here’s another: in reality, Terri Schiavo was a severely brain-damaged woman who was judicially starved to death in 2005 at the request of her husband, while evangelical Christian right-to-life groups unsuccessfully petitioned to keep her alive. In the culture, a 2005 episode of Law and Order entitled “Age of Innocence” depicted a severely brain-damaged woman whose husband tried to euthanize her—until he was murdered at the instigation of an evangelical Christian right-to-lifer. In reality, evangelical Christians try to keep people alive. In the culture, they murder people. That’s a subtle one, I know—but can you spot the difference?
Let’s try again. Isn’t this fun? In reality, anthropological studies have shown that primitive societies are even more violent than civilized ones. Primitive life is pretty miserable in general, with no protection against drought or famine, no medicine—so that even the simplest diseases can be deadly—and no equality for women, who have zero defense against pregnancy or oppression.
Now let’s look at the culture. In films such as Dances with Wolves, Pocahontas, and now Avatar—which are really all the same film—a civilized man enters primitive society and finds its values far superior to his own. The collectivist natives are peaceful, the women are treated with respect, and ancient forms of medicine work as well as modern ones.
Spot the difference? Right! In reality, it’s civilization, democracy, capitalism, and technology that give us greater health, equality, and happiness. So when you go to see Avatar and enjoy its special effects and 3-D imagery, just think to yourself, wow, we’d never have anything as cool as that if we lived like the Indians. I mean, they never even invented the wheel!
Hey, and speaking of Avatar, it not only celebrates being at one with the sacred Earth, but portrays U.S. soldiers as evil sadists out to destroy native peoples. Can you spot the difference between Avatar and, say, Haiti, where our old pal the sacred Earth slaughtered innocent people by the thousands and the U.S. military turned out in a massive rescue effort?
But in our culture, the U.S. military is always evil, housewives are always desperate, corporations are always corrupt, and poverty is always the fault of wealthy people’s greed. Can you spot the difference between those assumptions and reality?
If you can’t, you’re probably a liberal. And a knucklehead.
Andrew Klavan is a City Journal contributing editor and the author of such best-selling novels as Don’t Say a Word and Empire of Lies. His new thriller for young adults, The Long Way Home, is out in February
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 Sparky
Posts: 1931
       Location: Missing my Toe Socks | 

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       Location: Free Republic of Texas (for now) | heheehehhheheheeh Can you say Propaganda? hehehehhheehhehe | |
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 My Buddy and Me
       Location: Iowa | Not that I would be in total agreement w/ how he went about his witch hunt, but looking around our country today, it might lead a person to believe that Senator McCarthy's crusade wasn't totally out of line.
I bet he's rolling in his grave right about now.
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| Actaully Senator McCarthy would be another good one to ask can you spot the difference between reality and fantasy? I still cannot get any liberal to explain to me how SENATOR McCarthy managed to be on The HOUSE of Un-American Activities Committee to question any member of Hollywood. For goodness sakes that one has managed to even make its way into some history books used to teach our children. McCarthy was worried about communists working for the government and all things considered I would say rightly so. Why the hell would we want known sympathizers of our enemy in charge of the government... oh wait.... nevermind... | |
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 My Buddy and Me
       Location: Iowa | rose - 2/8/2010 11:14 AM Actaully Senator McCarthy would be another good one to ask can you spot the difference between reality and fantasy? I still cannot get any liberal to explain to me how SENATOR McCarthy managed to be on The HOUSE of Un-American Activities Committee to question any member of Hollywood. For goodness sakes that one has managed to even make its way into some history books used to teach our children. McCarthy was worried about communists working for the government and all things considered I would say rightly so. Why the hell would we want known sympathizers of our enemy in charge of the government... oh wait.... nevermind...
I've ran into this particular discussion as well and have as of yet to receive anything other than a deer in the headlights look and a whole bunch of 'but, but, but'. I didn't realize that it has actually made it in to some of the history books though.
I know that this is rhetorical, but did we as a nation just give up on a thorough vetting process? I mean, if it wasn't for a radio talk show host, Van Jones would be working in D.C. this very moment and how many actually made it in (excluding the present occupant of the Oval Office)? I guess Stalin was some sort of prophet (or at least I think it was Stalin that predicted it).
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 My Buddy and Me
       Location: Iowa | Hey Rose, I'm curious. What are your thoughts on Ed Murrow?
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| RQH - 2/8/2010 9:58 AM Hey Rose, I'm curious. What are your thoughts on Ed Murrow?
Don't think much of him actually. I think it is rather fitting some of the "reporters" the left tries to paint as the modern Murrow, are in fact comedians and hacks who make mockumentaries, passing them off as facts. Murrow went after McCarthy because Duggan (Murrow's good friend) committed suicide after being accused for spying for the Soviets. McCarthy was right, Duggan as history proved, was a communist and a Soviet spy. I think it is telling that Murrow refused to debate Buckley on the validity of Soviet spies having infilitrated our government. If in fact the whole thing was hysteria, how come he refused to hear out anything that proved otherwise, nor allow it be brought forth to the people to hear and allow them to decide. Both of these makes his motives suspect in my opinion as well as makes me question how accurate his reporting of it was. I once read a comment that pointed out if Murrow wanted to discredit Francis of Assisi and had the amount of footage on him that he had on McCarthy he could have convinced the world the Catholic Saint was in fact a pervert, who liked birds a little too much. I think that is true, especially since we have seen that is exactly what the MSM does today when they don't like someone and he is the one who perfected this practice. | |
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 Mom Mom and Meme
Posts: 763
     Location: What location? | rose - 2/7/2010 4:20 PM Andrew Klavan
Culture v. Reality
Can you spot the difference?
5 February 2010
Ever since Pajamas TV began airing Klavan on the Culture, conservatives have been coming up to me and saying, “Ah, culture! What’s that?” Allow me to explain.
Culture in America is an enchanted place where the conservative facts of life are magically transformed into liberal fantasies. In movies, TV shows, novels, even comedy routines, our intellectuals, entertainers, and other fools are busily reshaping reality into works of art through their piercing insights into what will get them good reviews and awards, and through their rich and varied experience of the café in the Chateau Marmont in Los Angeles.
To illustrate, I’ll give you some examples. See if you can spot the difference between reality and American culture. In reality, President John F. Kennedy was a fierce Cold Warrior who twice tripled America’s military presence in the Vietnam War to try to stop the spread of Communism and risked nuclear disaster by standing up to the Soviet Union in Cuba. He was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald, an America-hating leftist who had once defected to the USSR.
Now, the culture: in Oliver Stone’s film JFK—nominated for Best Picture Oscar in 1991—Kennedy is a peaceful lefty contemplating a withdrawal from Vietnam. He’s assassinated by a vast right-wing cabal that includes every single person in America except for Oliver Stone. Reality, culture. Can you spot the difference?
Here’s another: in reality, Terri Schiavo was a severely brain-damaged woman who was judicially starved to death in 2005 at the request of her husband, while evangelical Christian right-to-life groups unsuccessfully petitioned to keep her alive. In the culture, a 2005 episode of Law and Order entitled “Age of Innocence” depicted a severely brain-damaged woman whose husband tried to euthanize her—until he was murdered at the instigation of an evangelical Christian right-to-lifer. In reality, evangelical Christians try to keep people alive. In the culture, they murder people. That’s a subtle one, I know—but can you spot the difference?
Let’s try again. Isn’t this fun? In reality, anthropological studies have shown that primitive societies are even more violent than civilized ones. Primitive life is pretty miserable in general, with no protection against drought or famine, no medicine—so that even the simplest diseases can be deadly—and no equality for women, who have zero defense against pregnancy or oppression.
Now let’s look at the culture. In films such as Dances with Wolves, Pocahontas, and now Avatar—which are really all the same film—a civilized man enters primitive society and finds its values far superior to his own. The collectivist natives are peaceful, the women are treated with respect, and ancient forms of medicine work as well as modern ones.
Spot the difference? Right! In reality, it’s civilization, democracy, capitalism, and technology that give us greater health, equality, and happiness. So when you go to see Avatar and enjoy its special effects and 3-D imagery, just think to yourself, wow, we’d never have anything as cool as that if we lived like the Indians. I mean, they never even invented the wheel!
Hey, and speaking of Avatar, it not only celebrates being at one with the sacred Earth, but portrays U.S. soldiers as evil sadists out to destroy native peoples. Can you spot the difference between Avatar and, say, Haiti, where our old pal the sacred Earth slaughtered innocent people by the thousands and the U.S. military turned out in a massive rescue effort?
But in our culture, the U.S. military is always evil, housewives are always desperate, corporations are always corrupt, and poverty is always the fault of wealthy people’s greed. Can you spot the difference between those assumptions and reality?
If you can’t, you’re probably a liberal. And a knucklehead.
Andrew Klavan is a City Journal contributing editor and the author of such best-selling novels as Don’t Say a Word and Empire of Lies. His new thriller for young adults, The Long Way Home, is out in February
Hey Rose, how ya been? It's been boring around here. All snowed in and nada to do but read. Hence my driveby on politigab :) I saw you had posted here and most always, find your posts informative and entertaining. :) Very interesting "Can you spot the difference?" I gathered at first glance that it is an insulting comparison between conservatives and liberals, with liberals of course,catching the brunt of the subject at hand. Reality, being something liberals just can't wrap their minds around. LMAO I love it! Liberals are just plain knuckleheads. Here's a go at it:
Native peoples and the US military, let's do this one. As supportive as I am of our men and women in uniform, I face the "reality" not the "culture" that this makes them somehow in a "sainthood";) They are human and as such suffer from the evils that befall man. Not so long ago, the US military slaughtered native peoples in this country, those native peoples were unarmed old men, women and children....I shouldn't need to inform such a brilliant, informed individual as you of which I speak. I find the conservatives like to play these little "word" games to illustrate how they are in touch with reality and how others are, well, are either stupid, ignorant or what was it? ah - knuckleheads. In this case are you saying you support the annihilation of native peoples, who are in fact old men, women and children, as an heroic endeavor taken on by our saintly armed forces? I am sure I could come up with other less attractive failings of our armed forces, but it is not my intentions to malign their character here. Just expressing the conservative idealizing of the armed forces, where the conservative is incapable of recognizing this power must be kept under leash and held to a higher standard of law. Reality check.
Pat Robertson an evangelical Christian doesn't agree it was the sacred earth, he pretty much feels it's God's Judgment on the Haitian people for their pact with the Devil. What a caring guy, huh? He really is trying to help people stay alive right?
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| ponygirlmt-vernon - 2/13/2010 2:03 PM
Hey Rose, how ya been? It's been boring around here. All snowed in and nada to do but read. Hence my driveby on politigab :)
Hanging in there. We had snow too. I blame RQH, I made the mistake of teasing him about never getting snow or cold in winter and by golly I get to experience just that! I think he sent it.
I saw you had posted here and most always, find your posts informative and entertaining. :)
Odd you should pick the one to take issue with that I posted because of its humorous jab at Hollywierd's version of history more so than information and thought provocation.
Very interesting "Can you spot the difference?" I gathered at first glance that it is an insulting comparison between conservatives and liberals, with liberals of course,catching the brunt of the subject at hand. Reality, being something liberals just can't wrap their minds around. LMAO I love it! Liberals are just plain knuckleheads. Here's a go at it:
Native peoples and the US military, let's do this one. As supportive as I am of our men and women in uniform, I face the "reality" not the "culture" that this makes them somehow in a "sainthood";) They are human and as such suffer from the evils that befall man. Not so long ago, the US military slaughtered native peoples in this country, those native peoples were unarmed old men, women and children....I shouldn't need to inform such a brilliant, informed individual as you of which I speak.
But apparently you felt the need to state the obvious anyhow, to one so brilliant as myself. Love the sarcasm good to see you haven't lost that. So I am guessing all those movies that show them as people of the earth, in touch with nature and the spirit world and never ever doing any wrong are the correct ones? Help me out, I am more cerebal and tend to believe everything on the box is bullsh!t so not sure which movies I should believe are correct history. Or maybe I should just stick with the books, that point out the good and the bad of both sides.
I find the conservatives like to play these little "word" games to illustrate how they are in touch with reality and how others are, well, are either stupid, ignorant or what was it?
Really? Just conservatives? Not getting out much because of that snow are you? Expand your circle once the snow melts. Humans like to play with words and diminish their meanings. Humans like to twist and bend facts until they fit into the box that is their view of the world. Surely you have figured that out by now.
ah - knuckleheads. In this case are you saying you support the annihilation of native peoples, who are in fact old men, women and children, as an heroic endeavor taken on by our saintly armed forces? Why yes that is just what I am saying. It was up there in that post, on this thread where I also said, Southerners should have been allowed to continue to enslave whole groups of people simply because their skin was to dark. That was after I said, there was nothing wrong with Hitler killing all the Jews, but before I said, We shouldn't have put the Japanese, other Asians and Aleutians in internment camps, we should have just shot them. You missed all of these statements? There still there, including that one you mention about me thinking it was okay to have treated the indians so cruelly. Perhaps when FH and RQH finish with the decoder ring they will let you borrow it so you can see the rest of what I said. I do wonder though, does such logic gymnastics ever exhaust... I would need a nap after that type of workout, but than I am so cerebal, no wait you said brilliant.
I am sure I could come up with other less attractive failings of our armed forces, but it is not my intentions to malign their character here. Just expressing the conservative idealizing of the armed forces, where the conservative is incapable of recognizing this power must be kept under leash and held to a higher standard of law. Reality check.
Pat Robertson an evangelical Christian doesn't agree it was the sacred earth, he pretty much feels it's God's Judgment on the Haitian people for their pact with the Devil. What a caring guy, huh? He really is trying to help people stay alive right?
Seriously? You're throwing Robertson at me as your gotcha moment?!?! The man is madder than a box of frogs! Is there actually anyone out there who hasn't realized this yet... well okay, anyone who doesn't have their own special white coat?
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Posts: 1300
    Location: Arizona | Pat Robertson..... *sigh* another one that makes Christians look like idiots. Really irritates me. | |
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 Semper Fi
       Location: Free Republic of Texas (for now) | The Decoder Ring is mine all mine! heeheheeehehehe Go find, beg, borrow or steal your own! eheheheheheh
Now seriously for the individuals who have a hard time understanding Rose's humor and mine and other realist(s)' POV............. Open your eyes to reality and pull your head out of your azz! | |
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 Mom Mom and Meme
Posts: 763
     Location: What location? | rose - 2/15/2010 10:17 AM ponygirlmt-vernon - 2/13/2010 2:03 PM
Hey Rose, how ya been? It's been boring around here. All snowed in and nada to do but read. Hence my driveby on politigab :)
Hanging in there. We had snow too. I blame RQH, I made the mistake of teasing him about never getting snow or cold in winter and by golly I get to experience just that! I think he sent it.
I saw you had posted here and most always, find your posts informative and entertaining. :)
Odd you should pick the one to take issue with that I posted because of its humorous jab at Hollywierd's version of history more so than information and thought provocation.
Very interesting "Can you spot the difference?" I gathered at first glance that it is an insulting comparison between conservatives and liberals, with liberals of course,catching the brunt of the subject at hand. Reality, being something liberals just can't wrap their minds around. LMAO I love it! Liberals are just plain knuckleheads. Here's a go at it:
Native peoples and the US military, let's do this one. As supportive as I am of our men and women in uniform, I face the "reality" not the "culture" that this makes them somehow in a "sainthood";) They are human and as such suffer from the evils that befall man. Not so long ago, the US military slaughtered native peoples in this country, those native peoples were unarmed old men, women and children....I shouldn't need to inform such a brilliant, informed individual as you of which I speak.
But apparently you felt the need to state the obvious anyhow, to one so brilliant as myself. Love the sarcasm good to see you haven't lost that. So I am guessing all those movies that show them as people of the earth, in touch with nature and the spirit world and never ever doing any wrong are the correct ones? Help me out, I am more cerebal and tend to believe everything on the box is bullsh!t so not sure which movies I should believe are correct history. Or maybe I should just stick with the books, that point out the good and the bad of both sides.
I find the conservatives like to play these little "word" games to illustrate how they are in touch with reality and how others are, well, are either stupid, ignorant or what was it?
Really? Just conservatives? Not getting out much because of that snow are you? Expand your circle once the snow melts. Humans like to play with words and diminish their meanings. Humans like to twist and bend facts until they fit into the box that is their view of the world. Surely you have figured that out by now.
ah - knuckleheads. In this case are you saying you support the annihilation of native peoples, who are in fact old men, women and children, as an heroic endeavor taken on by our saintly armed forces? Why yes that is just what I am saying. It was up there in that post, on this thread where I also said, Southerners should have been allowed to continue to enslave whole groups of people simply because their skin was to dark. That was after I said, there was nothing wrong with Hitler killing all the Jews, but before I said, We shouldn't have put the Japanese, other Asians and Aleutians in internment camps, we should have just shot them. You missed all of these statements? There still there, including that one you mention about me thinking it was okay to have treated the indians so cruelly. Perhaps when FH and RQH finish with the decoder ring they will let you borrow it so you can see the rest of what I said. I do wonder though, does such logic gymnastics ever exhaust... I would need a nap after that type of workout, but than I am so cerebal, no wait you said brilliant.
I am sure I could come up with other less attractive failings of our armed forces, but it is not my intentions to malign their character here. Just expressing the conservative idealizing of the armed forces, where the conservative is incapable of recognizing this power must be kept under leash and held to a higher standard of law. Reality check.
Pat Robertson an evangelical Christian doesn't agree it was the sacred earth, he pretty much feels it's God's Judgment on the Haitian people for their pact with the Devil. What a caring guy, huh? He really is trying to help people stay alive right?
Seriously? You're throwing Robertson at me as your gotcha moment?!?! The man is madder than a box of frogs! Is there actually anyone out there who hasn't realized this yet... well okay, anyone who doesn't have their own special white coat?
RQH, may possibly be a scientific genius if that is the case ;) You should patent that RQH. LOL
Touche! I should have realized this was just a humorous jab. However, in the context of the "jab at Hollywood's history lessons" who bases their facts on movies? Can you just imagine the History Teacher's expression as little Johnny orates the history of the United States based upon Amistad?
BTW on Dances with Wolves, I certainly saw that Indians massacred Indians ;) However, did you also learn that captured white women were not treated the same captured Indian women? The truth is Rose, they treated us better than we treated them, while we took their home from them. I just wonder how any of us would act if someone took our land and killed our people? Oh wait I already know :o
Now about the sarcasm, oh heck, I won't ever lose that dear. ;) It's a Southern thang. :) Ah, the books are generally much better than the movies....so I can't argue that with you. Don't ya just hate when they tweak it for the effects? But as mentioned, who gets their History education from a movie? Where did I mention that the people of the "earth" never do anything wrong? LOL Also, I don't know of any written word that doesn't give more a slant to the authors own biases, or those whom commissioned him:)
Certainly I have "enough contact" with others to know that people have a tendency to bend reality to their way of thinking. ;) LOL Which I am happy to hear that you have now realized that people do this, therefore their views/opinions are not absolute truth.
I see you have not lost your sarcasm as well, my "question" begged an answer, of which, is not a statement. Therefore, you answered that annihilation of old men, woman and children was okay with you. Thanks I won't need the decoder ring, I find straight questions generally receive direct answers. Nevertheless, I do consider you brilliant. I didn't have an opinion on your care-o-meter until now....no comment.
Pat Robertson is definitely madder than a box of frogs....he is an evangelical christian....that should be a gotcha moment for anyone, being his riches do come from supporters, of which he has plenty ;)
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 My Buddy and Me
       Location: Iowa | foundation horse - 2/15/2010 5:56 PM The Decoder Ring is mine all mine! heeheheeehehehe Go find, beg, borrow or steal your own! eheheheheheh
Now seriously for the individuals who have a hard time understanding Rose's humor and mine and other realist(s)' POV............. Open your eyes to reality and pull your head out of your azz!
Uh hmmmm, ease up there Trigger, half of those UPC's that were mailed in to Marvel Comics to get that decoder ring, for eating Cracker Jack's were mine!!! If PG wants one of her own, she can go either eat 200 boxes of it or get somebody to go in w/ her like we did. The US Postal service is slow enough w/out adding somebody else on to share w/.
Not trying to be selfish here PG, but you're up a creek w/ this one. And FH, you've had it more than your two week agreed upon time share. Cough it up Red and send it back north!!!
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 Semper Fi
       Location: Free Republic of Texas (for now) | RQH - 2/15/2010 6:22 PM foundation horse - 2/15/2010 5:56 PM The Decoder Ring is mine all mine! heeheheeehehehe Go find, beg, borrow or steal your own! eheheheheheh
Now seriously for the individuals who have a hard time understanding Rose's humor and mine and other realist(s)' POV............. Open your eyes to reality and pull your head out of your azz!
Uh hmmmm, ease up there Trigger, half of those UPC's that were mailed in to Marvel Comics to get that decoder ring, for eating Cracker Jack's were mine!!! If PG wants one of her own, she can go either eat 200 boxes of it or get somebody to go in w/ her like we did. The US Postal service is slow enough w/out adding somebody else on to share w/.
Not trying to be selfish here PG, but you're up a creek w/ this one. And FH, you've had it more than your two week agreed upon time share. Cough it up Red and send it back north!!!
LMAO heheheeheheheh BLECH there it is! ehheehhh You can have back now! eehehehheheeh | |
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 Semper Fi
       Location: Free Republic of Texas (for now) | Pat Robertson is definitely madder than a box of frogs....he is an evangelical christian....that should be a gotcha moment for anyone, being his riches do come from supporters, of which he has plenty ;)
PG, do you consider George W. Bush an Evangelical Christian then?
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| ponygirlmt-vernon - 2/15/2010 4:17 PM
RQH, may possibly be a scientific genius if that is the case ;) You should patent that RQH. LOL
Touche! I should have realized this was just a humorous jab. However, in the context of the "jab at Hollywood's history lessons" who bases their facts on movies? Can you just imagine the History Teacher's expression as little Johnny orates the history of the United States based upon Amistad?
You sure about that? You don't really want me to start pulling history plans that include these movies do you? They are used in classrooms, and to think otherwise shows either being very blessed with the public schools their children attend, a naive understanding of what is used to teach one's children or just not caring. Now knowing you and how concerned you are about your children, my money is on you were blessed with the schools your children attend and what the teachers use. Movies are indeed used to teach history, as I pointed out in an earlier post some of these movies fantasy of history has even made it into the textbooks.
BTW on Dances with Wolves, I certainly saw that Indians massacred Indians ;) However, did you also learn that captured white women were not treated the same captured Indian women? The truth is Rose, they treated us better than we treated them, while we took their home from them. I just wonder how any of us would act if someone took our land and killed our people? Oh wait I already know :o
Oh you may want read some more, try first person accounts this time. The treatment of the captives depended on the tribe, the particular warrior who captured them and even the captive. Some captives didn't like being captured and thus did not find their treatment so lovely. Some tribes and some warriors were not so kind and thus that treatment was not so nice. Which really makes the Indians no different than any other human being and their actions in war.
Now about the sarcasm, oh heck, I won't ever lose that dear. ;) It's a Southern thang. :) Ah, the books are generally much better than the movies....so I can't argue that with you. Don't ya just hate when they tweak it for the effects? Actually special effects I like. I like movies that are sensational and aim to be what film was intended, as absurd entertainment. I despise when they try and be something more and find it at its most absurd in those moments.
But as mentioned, who gets their History education from a movie? Sadly more than you think. Remember teaching is what I do along with tranlation. Entertainment has become a very necessary part of public education and the best way to do that is Television and movies. As I said your children are clearly blessed in the public schools they attend.
Where did I mention that the people of the "earth" never do anything wrong? LOL Also, I don't know of any written word that doesn't give more a slant to the authors own biases, or those whom commissioned him:)
Which would make one very foolish if they only read one modern historian's take on events and not first person accounts or documents from the period as well as other historians. Clearly if you think I am reading only one person's account on events I am not so brilliant as you claimed.
Certainly I have "enough contact" with others to know that people have a tendency to bend reality to their way of thinking. ;) LOL Which I am happy to hear that you have now realized that people do this, therefore their views/opinions are not absolute truth.
I never had that problem of realizing people twist things to fit their view. You simply accuse me of it because I refuse to read your conspiracy theory sources and demand credible sources to back a view before I will consider it.
I see you have not lost your sarcasm as well, my "question" begged an answer, of which, is not a statement. Therefore, you answered that annihilation of old men, woman and children was okay with you. Thanks I won't need the decoder ring, I find straight questions generally receive direct answers. Nevertheless, I do consider you brilliant. I didn't have an opinion on your care-o-meter until now....no comment.
Odd that it took this for you to decide on the amount of empathy I have for others and their suffering. How long known each other and how many conversations have we had on various topics? Yet not until now you could not decide if I had any empathy or not, since not seems to be your implication.
Pat Robertson is definitely madder than a box of frogs....he is an evangelical christian....that should be a gotcha moment for anyone, being his riches do come from supporters, of which he has plenty ;)
Am
Yes but we both know my feelings on hyper evangelicals and their followers. Now hush on that subject... the dragon has no vodka at the moment to subdue him if we go down that road. I have promised us to drink none for Lent.
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| RQH - 2/15/2010 4:22 PM foundation horse - 2/15/2010 5:56 PM The Decoder Ring is mine all mine! heeheheeehehehe Go find, beg, borrow or steal your own! eheheheheheh
Now seriously for the individuals who have a hard time understanding Rose's humor and mine and other realist(s)' POV............. Open your eyes to reality and pull your head out of your azz!
Uh hmmmm, ease up there Trigger, half of those UPC's that were mailed in to Marvel Comics to get that decoder ring, for eating Cracker Jack's were mine!!! If PG wants one of her own, she can go either eat 200 boxes of it or get somebody to go in w/ her like we did. The US Postal service is slow enough w/out adding somebody else on to share w/.
Not trying to be selfish here PG, but you're up a creek w/ this one. And FH, you've had it more than your two week agreed upon time share. Cough it up Red and send it back north!!!
You have to keep an eye on him sometimes he doesn't quite understand what his fair share is... | |
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 My Buddy and Me
       Location: Iowa | Reading through this, one arguement that I love is when somebody jumps up on the soapbox and starts in w/ how the whites took this land from the Indians. How we so incredibly screwed this indigenous people over the proverbial log, that we as a nation will atone for these 'sins' for the remainder of our days through Federal tax dollars.
The ironic part to all of this, is that rarely (and I do mean RARELY), do I ever hear those people talking about how these noble Indians did the very same thing to their very own race! How one tribe pushed another tribe out of the region (sometimes to the point of extinction) just to have claim to better hunting grounds. The Sioux, Apache, Comanche, Seneca, etc., etc., etc.,,,,, all guilty. Even further down south w/ the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incans, talk about some blood thirsty individuals!
And here's the kicker to the whole thing, it's been happening all over the world, throughout ALL of history. These very same whites that took this sacred land from the Indians, were probably descendents from Celtic tribes that were conquered by the Roman Empire. Or from Germanic tribes again conquered by the Roman Empire. Or from Russians that were once rolled by Genghis Khan. What about the Persian Empire? The Ottaman Empire, the Egyptians?
Were events like Wounded Knee horrible? Yep. But are we alone in events like this? Nope. How about the Comanche's ride to the Gulf of Mexico right there in the Lone Star State itself?
Simple fact of life.................................. there's always a bigger fish.
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 Semper Fi
       Location: Free Republic of Texas (for now) | RQH - 2/15/2010 7:30 PM Reading through this, one arguement that I love is when somebody jumps up on the soapbox and starts in w/ how the whites took this land from the Indians. How we so incredibly screwed this indigenous people over the proverbial log, that we as a nation will atone for these 'sins' for the remainder of our days through Federal tax dollars.
The ironic part to all of this, is that rarely (and I do mean RARELY), do I ever hear those people talking about how these noble Indians did the very same thing to their very own race! How one tribe pushed another tribe out of the region (sometimes to the point of extinction) just to have claim to better hunting grounds. The Sioux, Apache, Comanche, Seneca, etc., etc., etc.,,,,, all guilty. Even further down south w/ the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incans, talk about some blood thirsty individuals!
And here's the kicker to the whole thing, it's been happening all over the world, throughout ALL of history. These very same whites that took this sacred land from the Indians, were probably descendents from Celtic tribes that were conquered by the Roman Empire. Or from Germanic tribes again conquered by the Roman Empire. Or from Russians that were once rolled by Ghengis Khan. What about the Persian Empire? The Ottaman Empire, the Egyptians?
Were events like Wounded Knee horrible? Yep. But are we alone in events like this? Nope. How about the Comanche's ride to the Gulf of Mexico right there in the Lone Star State itself?
Simple fact of life.................................. there's always a bigger fish.
And I would like add, The African Slave Traders in Africa who sold their sold their tribesmen into slavery.............. | |
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 Mom Mom and Meme
Posts: 763
     Location: What location? | Ridenfly: No, Pat Robertson is a hateful beast and should be excommunicated by the "Church", the claim he is a "christian" is suspect. Rose is right on with her jab, but only to the negative, the knife cuts both ways. The actions of any person can be for good or they can be for evil, their affiliations are also affected by this. Foundation Horse, your a realist, right? Why a need for decoder rings then? LMAO Just joking with ya. I do understand your humor just fine, lol, but I like a little twisted humor of my own once in a while. I can't find that with those who agree with me.... LMAO RQH, I do like the crackerjacks....but dang that's alot, I will have to pass. LOL Foundation Horse, YES, George Bush is an Evangelical. Methodist are evangelicals, do you disagree? Rose: I reckon I am blessed, our kids are taught "textbook" history. However, that doesn't mean the textbooks aren't biased....I teach my children in addition to their "secular schooling". My advise to anyone who's children are taught by "anyone else" that they endeavor to teach their children in addition to that schooling. On the "Indian captives", I am not propagating that the Indians were "saints", nor am I saying they never did any wrong. How is it you assumed that? I am saying that across the board, tit for tat, generally speaking, the whites were better treated. Are you saying they weren't or were about equal across the board? I am taking it from the "horse's mouth" so to speak, my relatives just so happen to be Indians. LOL Of course, I am sure, it is tainted a bit their way, kind of like the whiteman's side ;) So let's see if both sides are embellished...what are we to decide? It was a sucky time to live and we are happy we live in this modern age? LOL We differ on the absurdity of movies, I like them attempting to be realistic.... It's a fantasy, but I can tell the difference so I enjoy it nevertheless. For instance, I watched the Lightening Thief w/the kiddoes Saturday. I liked the way they retold the Mythological Stories. It added more to the stories and made them a bit more interesting than what I studied in school. I guess they are always rewriting history, so it doesn't surprise me they teach it through movies now. I am wrong then...I guess movies teach some the history...Glad I teach my children alternatively. Dad said paper never refused ink and in this case the film doesn't refuse the image.
I reckon you are brilliant Rose, we agree on reading only one source. ;) However, it appears we disagree on what "credible" sources are.
I think you are assuming negatively on my "no comment" to your "care-o-meter" levels. I simply refuse to assume if what you say is exactly how you feel or if you are being "as mentioned" sarcastic. I have known you for a long time, so Yeah, I figured you'd know, I knew your empathy levels.
But Rose, you know I love your dragon!!! What!No vodka? We must remedy this. To your Lent festivities!
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 Mom Mom and Meme
Posts: 763
     Location: What location? | RQH - 2/15/2010 7:30 PM Reading through this, one arguement that I love is when somebody jumps up on the soapbox and starts in w/ how the whites took this land from the Indians. How we so incredibly screwed this indigenous people over the proverbial log, that we as a nation will atone for these 'sins' for the remainder of our days through Federal tax dollars.
The ironic part to all of this, is that rarely (and I do mean RARELY), do I ever hear those people talking about how these noble Indians did the very same thing to their very own race! How one tribe pushed another tribe out of the region (sometimes to the point of extinction) just to have claim to better hunting grounds. The Sioux, Apache, Comanche, Seneca, etc., etc., etc.,,,,, all guilty. Even further down south w/ the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incans, talk about some blood thirsty individuals!
And here's the kicker to the whole thing, it's been happening all over the world, throughout ALL of history. These very same whites that took this sacred land from the Indians, were probably descendents from Celtic tribes that were conquered by the Roman Empire. Or from Germanic tribes again conquered by the Roman Empire. Or from Russians that were once rolled by Genghis Khan. What about the Persian Empire? The Ottaman Empire, the Egyptians?
Were events like Wounded Knee horrible? Yep. But are we alone in events like this? Nope. How about the Comanche's ride to the Gulf of Mexico right there in the Lone Star State itself?
Simple fact of life.................................. there's always a bigger fish.
Cough....... research my posts on BHW to a certain Indian female who shall remain nameless.....lol I absolutely agree with ya RQH, always a bigger fish....but this too is a deviation from the Hollywood jab. "Can you tell the difference between reality and fantasy?" I mean if you're a conservative you probably think you can and no evidence to the contrary can disprove that to a conservative. They know that they know, they know. However, if you're a liberal, then you are just a knucklehead and can't tell shat from shineola! Going from movie to movie thinking wow that really happened to tinkerbell. LMAO This bashing is pretty funny, but does it accomplish anything other than dissuading communication?
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 Mom Mom and Meme
Posts: 763
     Location: What location? | foundation horse - 2/15/2010 7:39 PM RQH - 2/15/2010 7:30 PM Reading through this, one arguement that I love is when somebody jumps up on the soapbox and starts in w/ how the whites took this land from the Indians. How we so incredibly screwed this indigenous people over the proverbial log, that we as a nation will atone for these 'sins' for the remainder of our days through Federal tax dollars.
The ironic part to all of this, is that rarely (and I do mean RARELY), do I ever hear those people talking about how these noble Indians did the very same thing to their very own race! How one tribe pushed another tribe out of the region (sometimes to the point of extinction) just to have claim to better hunting grounds. The Sioux, Apache, Comanche, Seneca, etc., etc., etc.,,,,, all guilty. Even further down south w/ the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incans, talk about some blood thirsty individuals!
And here's the kicker to the whole thing, it's been happening all over the world, throughout ALL of history. These very same whites that took this sacred land from the Indians, were probably descendents from Celtic tribes that were conquered by the Roman Empire. Or from Germanic tribes again conquered by the Roman Empire. Or from Russians that were once rolled by Ghengis Khan. What about the Persian Empire? The Ottaman Empire, the Egyptians?
Were events like Wounded Knee horrible? Yep. But are we alone in events like this? Nope. How about the Comanche's ride to the Gulf of Mexico right there in the Lone Star State itself?
Simple fact of life.................................. there's always a bigger fish.
And I would like add, The African Slave Traders in Africa who sold their sold their tribesmen into slavery..............
And the evangelicals who believed it was their God given right to buy them. Two wrongs don't make jack right. LOL | |
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 Mom Mom and Meme
Posts: 763
     Location: What location? | ponygirlmt-vernon - 2/16/2010 4:11 PM foundation horse - 2/15/2010 7:39 PM RQH - 2/15/2010 7:30 PM Reading through this, one arguement that I love is when somebody jumps up on the soapbox and starts in w/ how the whites took this land from the Indians. How we so incredibly screwed this indigenous people over the proverbial log, that we as a nation will atone for these 'sins' for the remainder of our days through Federal tax dollars.
The ironic part to all of this, is that rarely (and I do mean RARELY), do I ever hear those people talking about how these noble Indians did the very same thing to their very own race! How one tribe pushed another tribe out of the region (sometimes to the point of extinction) just to have claim to better hunting grounds. The Sioux, Apache, Comanche, Seneca, etc., etc., etc.,,,,, all guilty. Even further down south w/ the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incans, talk about some blood thirsty individuals!
And here's the kicker to the whole thing, it's been happening all over the world, throughout ALL of history. These very same whites that took this sacred land from the Indians, were probably descendents from Celtic tribes that were conquered by the Roman Empire. Or from Germanic tribes again conquered by the Roman Empire. Or from Russians that were once rolled by Ghengis Khan. What about the Persian Empire? The Ottaman Empire, the Egyptians?
Were events like Wounded Knee horrible? Yep. But are we alone in events like this? Nope. How about the Comanche's ride to the Gulf of Mexico right there in the Lone Star State itself?
Simple fact of life.................................. there's always a bigger fish.
And I would like add, The African Slave Traders in Africa who sold their sold their tribesmen into slavery..............
And the evangelicals who believed it was their God given right to buy them. Two wrongs don't make jack right. LOL
I have to add before I run to the bus stop.....Culture can dictate alot of what is right and what is wrong, can't it FH? I mean this is what Rose has posted here in sarcastic humor, but the truth is, whatever the culture allows is truth at the time. Upstanding Christian men owned slaves-had children by them etc....it wasn't wrong or even considered bad, it was his right by God at the time. Culture...... | |
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