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National identity card
Moderators: T turning 3, BarOFarm

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HotbearLVR
Posted 3/10/2010 10:49 AM (#3525894)
Subject: National identity card



BHW Resident Surgeon

Posts: 2515
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Location: Minnesota
What do you all think of it?
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foundation horse
Posted 3/10/2010 10:54 AM (#3525895 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card



Semper Fi

20001001001001002525
Location: Free Republic of Texas (for now)
It is wrong on so many levels.
Also, it is unConstitutional!
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RQH
Posted 3/10/2010 10:59 AM (#3525897 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card



My Buddy and Me

20005001001001002525
Location: Iowa
Are you talking about the 'new' bio-metric one?

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HotbearLVR
Posted 3/10/2010 11:19 AM (#3525900 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card



BHW Resident Surgeon

Posts: 2515
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Location: Minnesota
Yeah, the one with the DNA typing, and everything else.  It gives me the heebie jeebies.  It will be so easy for them to make a case for this in so many ways. 
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rose
Posted 3/10/2010 11:25 AM (#3525902 - in reply to #3525897)
Subject: RE: National identity card



50010010010025
RQH - 3/10/2010 8:59 AM Are you talking about the 'new' bio-metric one?



When I first heard about those, I thought golly that sounds like a brilliant idea having some sort of identification that proves you can work in this country legally. Then I thought about that for a moment and said oh... wait... we are already supposed  to show some form of recognized identification that proves we can work in this country legally so how is this any different? I mean it isn't like they won't figure out how to forge those since they can forge all the rest, you just can't stop a crook from being a crook.

ETA: It has DNA in it, okay explain how that works. Here I thought it was just fingerprints.
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RQH
Posted 3/10/2010 12:22 PM (#3525910 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card



My Buddy and Me

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Location: Iowa

ID Card for Workers Is at Center of Immigration Plan  

News Hub: Worker ID Card Spurs Controversy

Lawmakers working to craft a new comprehensive immigration bill are proposing a new national biometric ID card that would be required of all U.S. workers. WSJ's Laura Meckler explains the proposal and the objections from privacy advocates.

Under the potentially controversial plan still taking shape in the Senate, all legal U.S. workers, including citizens and immigrants, would be issued an ID card with embedded information, such as fingerprints, to tie the card to the worker.

The ID card plan is one of several steps advocates of an immigration overhaul are taking to address concerns that have defeated similar bills in the past.

The uphill effort to pass a bill is being led by Sens. Chuck Schumer (D., N.Y.) and Lindsey Graham (R., S.C.), who plan to meet with President Barack Obama as soon as this week to update him on their work. An administration official said the White House had no position on the biometric card.

"It's the nub of solving the immigration dilemma politically speaking," Mr. Schumer said in an interview. The card, he said, would directly answer concerns that after legislation is signed, another wave of illegal immigrants would arrive. "If you say they can't get a job when they come here, you'll stop it."

The biggest objections to the biometric cards may come from privacy advocates, who fear they would become de facto national ID cards that enable the government to track citizens.

"It is fundamentally a massive invasion of people's privacy," said Chris Calabrese, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. "We're not only talking about fingerprinting every American, treating ordinary Americans like criminals in order to work. We're also talking about a card that would quickly spread from work to voting to travel to pretty much every aspect of American life that requires identification."

Mr. Graham says he respects those concerns but disagrees. "We've all got Social Security cards," he said. "They're just easily tampered with. Make them tamper-proof. That's all I'm saying."

U.S. employers now have the option of using an online system called E-Verify to check whether potential employees are in the U.S. legally. Many Republicans have pressed to make the system mandatory. But others, including Mr. Schumer, complain that the existing system is ineffective.

Last year, White House aides said they expected to push immigration legislation in 2010. But with health care and unemployment dominating his attention, the president has given little indication the issue is a priority.

Rather, Mr. Obama has said he wanted to see bipartisan support in Congress first. So far, Mr. Graham is the only Republican to voice interest publicly, and he wants at least one other GOP co-sponsor to launch the effort.

An immigration overhaul has long proven a complicated political task. The Latino community is pressing for action and will be angry if it is put off again. But many Americans oppose any measure that resembles amnesty for people who came here illegally.

Under the legislation envisioned by Messrs. Graham and Schumer, the estimated 10.8 million people living illegally in the U.S. would be offered a path to citizenship, though they would have to register, pay taxes, pay a fine and wait in line. A guest-worker program would let a set number of new foreigners come to the U.S. legally to work.

Most European countries require citizens and foreigners to carry ID cards. The U.K. had been a holdout, but in the early 2000s it considered national cards as a way to stop identify fraud, protect against terrorism and help stop illegal foreign workers. Amid worries about the cost and complaints that the cards infringe on personal privacy, the government said it would make them voluntary for British citizens. They are required for foreign workers and students, and so far about 130,000 cards have been issued.

Mr. Schumer first suggested a biometric-based employer-verification system last summer. Since then, the idea has gained currency and is now a centerpiece of the legislation being developed, aides said.

A person familiar with the legislative planning said the biometric data would likely be either fingerprints or a scan of the veins in the top of the hand. It would be required of all workers, including teenagers, but would be phased in, with current workers needing to obtain the card only when they next changed jobs, the person said.

The card requirement also would be phased in among employers, beginning with industries that typically rely on illegal-immigrant labor.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce doesn't have a position on the proposal, but it is concerned that employers would find it expensive and complicated to properly check the biometrics.

Mr. Schumer said employers would be able to buy a scanner to check the IDs for as much as $800. Small employers, he said, could take their applicants to a government office to like the Department of Motor Vehicles and have their hands scanned there.

—Alistair MacDonald contributed to this article.



This article is from the Wall Street Journal.


Evidently making a few phone calls to verify a social security number and drivers license is becoming too expensive.

Then I've heard the arguement being made that they are obtaining a DL and SSN's so this would be more effective.  

Question, if they can obtain both a SSN and a DL, what makes somebody believe they can't get a hold of one of these? 


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BarOFarm
Posted 3/10/2010 3:07 PM (#3525915 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card



Extreme Road Warrior

Posts: 514
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Location: Michigan
Criminals will figure out a way to make and sell them and illegals will figure out how to buy them.  Plain and simple. 

I have heard sob stories about businesses that have had to go through a lot of restructuring because they failed to verify their workers and were caught with a bunch of illegals.  While I feel bad that the company workers were laid off while the company got its poop in a group, I did not feel bad that they were caught not verifying their workers. 

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HotbearLVR
Posted 3/10/2010 3:56 PM (#3525918 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card



BHW Resident Surgeon

Posts: 2515
2000500
Location: Minnesota
As if they have nothing better to do than to sit around and figure out another way to track us like livestock.  These cards don't sound inexpensive...DNA typing, bar codes, etc...  Dirty rotten, scum sucking, no-good-for-nothing, lying, conniving, slithering, sleezy, bastards.   
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NeNe
Posted 3/10/2010 4:57 PM (#3525921 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card


Well Duh

Posts: 189
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Personally, I believe all of this is pointing us towards accepting the mark of the beast when the time comes. My beliefs tell me prophecy is being fulfilled before my very eyes.
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paracadista
Posted 3/10/2010 7:12 PM (#3525923 - in reply to #3525918)
Subject: RE: National identity card



1002525
Location: centrally located umungst the "nuts"
HotbearLVR - 3/10/2010 4:56 PM

As if they have nothing better to do than to sit around and figure out another way to track us like livestock.  These cards don't sound inexpensive...DNA typing, bar codes, etc...  Dirty rotten, scum sucking, no-good-for-nothing, lying, conniving, slithering, sleezy, bastards.   



Could you tell us how you really feel? !!!
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Rebel Yell
Posted 3/11/2010 6:32 AM (#3525926 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card



Veteran

Posts: 144
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Location: North Carolina
HotbearLVR - 3/10/2010 11:49 AM What do you all think of it?


I think that it is the precursor to using more modern technology for identification purposes. Can you say "microchip implant"? It's a logical extension of the argument. You could lose a card after all. Or counterfeit a card. BUT if you implant a microchip under the skin, it'll be much safer . . . can't be lost or stolen, nearly impossible to tamper with . . .  Of course, they'd tout it for being able to rapidly get information in case of an emergency- blood type for instance, and they're doing it only for "our own good."
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Sheepdog
Posted 3/11/2010 8:03 AM (#3525928 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card



Kinda Bitey

200010025
Location: MOLON LABE
"Ihre papiere, bitte!!"  

Liberty should mean something again.  This is another tool of tyranny and those of us who revere God should see it as a duty to resist.



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SC Wrangler
Posted 3/11/2010 10:12 AM (#3525941 - in reply to #3525926)
Subject: RE: National identity card


Regular

Posts: 57
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Location: Tulsa, Ok
Rebel Yell - 3/11/2010 6:32 AM
HotbearLVR - 3/10/2010 11:49 AM What do you all think of it?


I think that it is the precursor to using more modern technology for identification purposes. Can you say "microchip implant"? It's a logical extension of the argument. You could lose a card after all. Or counterfeit a card. BUT if you implant a microchip under the skin, it'll be much safer . . . can't be lost or stolen, nearly impossible to tamper with . . .  Of course, they'd tout it for being able to rapidly get information in case of an emergency- blood type for instance, and they're doing it only for "our own good."



No thank you.  I prefer to be in charge of my "own good".
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CJE
Posted 3/11/2010 4:06 PM (#3525964 - in reply to #3525918)
Subject: RE: National identity card



Elite Veteran

Posts: 859
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Location: roseville, oh 43777
HotbearLVR - 3/10/2010 4:56 PM As if they have nothing better to do than to sit around and figure out another way to track us like livestock.  These cards don't sound inexpensive...DNA typing, bar codes, etc...  Dirty rotten, scum sucking, no-good-for-nothing, lying, conniving, slithering, sleezy, bastards.   


You took the works right out of my mouth!

I am not for this at all...........this gives the government more power.......just think how easy it would be able to find us.......or ID us maybe for nothing more than not having health insurance......could it be.........
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CJE
Posted 3/11/2010 4:08 PM (#3525965 - in reply to #3525921)
Subject: RE: National identity card



Elite Veteran

Posts: 859
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Location: roseville, oh 43777
NeNe - 3/10/2010 5:57 PM Personally, I believe all of this is pointing us towards accepting the mark of the beast when the time comes. My beliefs tell me prophecy is being fulfilled before my very eyes.


I so much agree with you........
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Lobo
Posted 3/11/2010 8:21 PM (#3525975 - in reply to #3525918)
Subject: RE: National identity card



1002525
Location: Arkansas
HotbearLVR - 3/10/2010 3:56 PM As if they have nothing better to do than to sit around and figure out another way to track us like livestock.  These cards don't sound inexpensive...DNA typing, bar codes, etc...  Dirty rotten, scum sucking, no-good-for-nothing, lying, conniving, slithering, sleezy, bastards.   

 Feel better?

Wouldn't bother me a bit.  Having lived for a number year's where I had to carry identification, my biggest worry was that one of my kid's would get in my purse and try out their new sissor's on it!

But why bother...if social security card's and driver's liscense can be produced so well that it takes an expert to authenticate...what makes the law maker's believe that a national identity card will stump them? 

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Rebel Yell
Posted 3/12/2010 6:03 AM (#3525980 - in reply to #3525975)
Subject: RE: National identity card



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Posts: 144
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Location: North Carolina
Lobo - 3/11/2010 9:21 PM But why bother...if social security card's and driver's liscense can be produced so well that it takes an expert to authenticate...what makes the law maker's believe that a national identity card will stump them? 


Precisely the type of argument that will follow a national i.d. card - "it's not enough - we need to go to something better - we'll go to microchip technology!"

Once again, it's the proverbial camel's nose getting in the tent . . .
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foundation horse
Posted 3/12/2010 7:23 AM (#3525983 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card



Semper Fi

20001001001001002525
Location: Free Republic of Texas (for now)
But Rebel Yell, is the technology you speak of, not already available via the micro chipping of pets?
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RQH
Posted 3/12/2010 7:30 AM (#3525984 - in reply to #3525983)
Subject: RE: National identity card



My Buddy and Me

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Location: Iowa
foundation horse - 3/12/2010 7:23 AM But Rebel Yell, is the technology you speak of, not already available via the micro chipping of pets?


I don't think he's saying that it isn't available.  Just that this biometric card would be a pre-cursor to that. 

Kind of like saying, 'This card wasn't enough to get the job done, but folks it didn't harm you.  We need to go more advanced'.


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foundation horse
Posted 3/12/2010 8:38 AM (#3525985 - in reply to #3525984)
Subject: RE: National identity card



Semper Fi

20001001001001002525
Location: Free Republic of Texas (for now)
RQH - 3/12/2010 7:30 AM
foundation horse - 3/12/2010 7:23 AM But Rebel Yell, is the technology you speak of, not already available via the micro chipping of pets?


I don't think he's saying that it isn't available.  Just that this biometric card would be a pre-cursor to that. 

Kind of like saying, 'This card wasn't enough to get the job done, but folks it didn't harm you.  We need to go more advanced'.



Awww, Incrementalism!
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CurlyQ
Posted 3/12/2010 5:25 PM (#3525991 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card



Cold hands and Warm Heart

Posts: 539
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Location: oklahoma
scary stuff. if you work and use a s.s. number, "they" can track a person now anyways. i saw an ad last night for ( i think) volkswagon, guy ran his hand over and the car unlocked after reconizing his print. that even gave me the heebiejeebies, haha
the gov't has no right to as much info as they ask for and all it comes down to, in my mind, is total control.
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CJE
Posted 3/12/2010 6:14 PM (#3525994 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card



Elite Veteran

Posts: 859
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Location: roseville, oh 43777
Have you heard about the black box the government wants to put in all new cars..........hmm........lets see can you say tracking........us........
they also could download the data........automatically fine you for lets say speeding.....

It just goes on and on.......
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RQH
Posted 3/12/2010 7:36 PM (#3525996 - in reply to #3525894)
Subject: RE: National identity card



My Buddy and Me

20005001001001002525
Location: Iowa
I've been giving this particular subject a great deal of thought today and I've come to a rather perplexing question about this entire program.  Not just this particular biometric proposal, but this national ID program was proposed three years ago but was tabled because of the backlash and lack of Congressional support it was receiving then.

However, here we are again and here's my problem.  Under the 1A, we have the freedom of religion.  That basic fundemental right to worship and follow God's word (I realize it encompasses all faiths, but I'm a follower of Christ and therefore they do not count in this instance) according to our faith.  It can be argued extensively that many of the principles that we hold so dear in this country are based in Christianity.  We are to be free of religious persecution from this nation's government.  And yet, knowing full well what the book of Revelation contains concerning the mark of the beast, Congressmen still continue w/ crap like this.  When I read the part of this article about taking workers in and having their hands scanned, I not only raise my eyebrows, but cringe.  If this crap passes, may I opt myself and my family out because of my faith? 

Why in the world even pursue something like this, knowing full well that every Christian in this country is thinking the very same thing when the read or hear about this?  How is something like THIS not a clear violation of my freedom of religion?

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Rebel Yell
Posted 3/12/2010 8:46 PM (#3526001 - in reply to #3525984)
Subject: RE: National identity card



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Location: North Carolina
RQH - 3/12/2010 8:30 AM
foundation horse - 3/12/2010 7:23 AM But Rebel Yell, is the technology you speak of, not already available via the micro chipping of pets?


I don't think he's saying that it isn't available.  Just that this biometric card would be a pre-cursor to that. 

Kind of like saying, 'This card wasn't enough to get the job done, but folks it didn't harm you.  We need to go more advanced'.




Precisely.

The microchips used for pets is pretty crude in the sense the only thing it contains is a unique string of numbers and letters that is assigned to your pet. The number is registered with a central database that connects you, the pet owner, to the microchipped pet.

The chip technology, which is available, I'm concerned about is the chip that stores ALL your personal information . . . SSN, bank accounts, credit cards, all health records, etc. It's easy to see how the gov't would try to sell this idea as being "good" for you.

Indeed, incrementalism would be a good description of how such a thing theoretically could come to pass. First thing to do is for everyone to accept a national ID card. Then the argument will be - well, you already have a card . . . all we want to do is make it so you could never lose it!
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Rebel Yell
Posted 3/12/2010 9:03 PM (#3526002 - in reply to #3525996)
Subject: RE: National identity card



Veteran

Posts: 144
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Location: North Carolina
RQH - 3/12/2010 8:36 PM  If this crap passes, may I opt myself and my family out because of my faith? 

Why in the world even pursue something like this, knowing full well that every Christian in this country is thinking the very same thing when the read or hear about this?  How is something like THIS not a clear violation of my freedom of religion?



Call me cynical, but if you're of the Christian faith, the gov't's concern for your freedom of religion is not too great. If you're a Muslim, however, well, far be it for us to even THINK of doing anything at all that might offend them!

It just seems to me that the freedom of religion concerns are taken more seriously for the non-Christian faiths. Which I find incredibly ironic given that this nation was founded upon Christian principles and that we are, indeed, a nation of Christians - DESPITE what Barack Obama thinks.
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